Fortunately in this frightening scene the cops were better marksmen than the criminal shooter. As we know, that's not always the case. This could have been "mass murder" and not just a mass shooting.
I couldn't help but notice that this story defies the logic that crazy killers choose their targets and prefer gun-free zones like universities. I've always said that's not true, that crazy people are not usually that circumspect.
The other obvious conclusion is that it's wrong to say law-abiding gun owners would be able to stop someone like this BEFORE he kills. The only thing that prevented this guy from killing, was the fact that he was a lousy shot or just unlucky. In the most gun-rich environment possible, he shot four people before they could stop him.
I wondered if the female police officer who survived due to having had a vest on always wore it in the station. Maybe she knew that in spite of their superior fire power, something like this could happen. Good for her.
What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
"I couldn't help but notice that this story defies the logic that crazy killers choose their targets and prefer gun-free zones like universities. I've always said that's not true, that crazy people are not usually that circumspect."
ReplyDeleteIn Michigan, police stations are enumerated gun-free zones.
"I wondered if the female police officer who survived due to having had a vest on always wore it in the station. Maybe she knew that in spite of their superior fire power, something like this could happen. Good for her."
Exactly. And that is why I carry a firearm. Not that I frequent places where I suspect something is going to happen but because something bad can happen anywhere.
Mikeb wrote:
ReplyDelete"The other obvious conclusion is that it's wrong to say law-abiding gun owners would be able to stop someone like this BEFORE he kills."
I don't know of a single peaceably armed citizen that would suggest that they would stop any gunman before they were able to kill. What IS a fact is that having a gun there in the RIGHT hands greatly improves the chances of a better outcome.
Like at the Detroit police station.
Or here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReJn0kmobnI
Before anyone suggests the tired old fears that there will be a shootout that harms innocent people, that the police will show up and shoot the peaceably armed citizen by mistake, or that a good guy with a gun will only make things worse - please provide an example of that ever happening?
...Orygunner...
MikeB: “The other obvious conclusion is that it's wrong to say law-abiding gun owners would be able to stop someone like this BEFORE he kills.”
ReplyDeleteWell that would be murder.
Mike, do you really think any of those officers who shot back feel that having a gun escalated the situation? That they would have been better off lying on the ground and playing dead?
On a side note, I have never liked the argument about mass killers “choosing gun-free zones”- because of the choose word. The case is better laid out in terms of where the body count ends up higher. In this case we have a shooter that seemed to choose “suicide by cop” because he actively shot up an area where he knew he would immediately receive return fire. We didn’t have to wait for cops with guns to show up so the result was fewer innocent casualties- none in this case (probably aided by Kevlar vests).
C'mon guys, you're all being a little stubborn here, aren't you?
ReplyDeleteThis guy did not go to a gun free zone.
He shot 4 people before being brought down in spite of the fact that the place was filled with trained gun onwers.
MikeB: "He shot 4 people before being brought down in spite of the fact that the place was filled with trained gun onwers."
ReplyDelete.vs how many had he not been brought down? 14? 32?
Wow, one of my oldest buddies is a Detroit Police Officer. He's almost my age and is not out on the street every day...I checked out the 6th precinct and I know my buddy isn't there, that's down by the river and he's up at the Redford precinct.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I think is irrational and absurd for any gun rights proponent to say that their "precognition" and somehow superior developed evolved gun owner gun sense could have done anything that in reality would have made this into an even uglier situation.
Again, in the comments here, there is such a tragic disconnection from reality and media fostered fantasy.
Look, no one suggests that CCW carriers or cops can stop bad things before they happen. Unless a shooter is actively threatening before pulling a gun, they will get shots off. The officers responded with their own guns and ended the attack. It is not up for debate that being armed was a good thing.
ReplyDeleteOf course when officers do shoot a suspect BEFORE they attack, we all know what Mike’s reaction is.
TS: Actually, gunloons make this claim all the time.
ReplyDeleteCan you show me who said that, Jade? I’ll argue against them with you. We’ll stand hand in hand.
ReplyDeleteIf a CCW holder blows someone away and claims, “I think he was about to kill a bunch of people”- they are going to be charged with murder.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html
DeleteJust for anybody who happens to be reading comments four years old. Here's a counterexample to this ignorant claim that a CCW holder shooting somebody who is a threat to himself or others' lives will be charged with murder. Educate yourselves.
Thanks for that extremely rare example. Based on that I suppose you consider yourself educated as to the true nature of guns being used to prevent crime.
DeleteOne of the witnesses of the Tucson massacre was in the store when the shooting occurred. He was carrying a gun and he said that his first impulse was to pull it out and use it. He pulled it put and aimed at the person restraining Loughner who had taken possession of Loughners gun, thinking that he was going to take out the shooter.
ReplyDeleteIt was the quick panicked reaction of others who stopped him before he could shoot. If he had, he would have taken out one of the heroes of the day.
His after thoughts are worth reading and considering.
Microdot, Joe Zamudio expressly stated that he never drew his gun. Not only did he not aim it at the wrong guy, but it was holstered the whole time.
ReplyDelete@Microdot: Yeah, do you have a credible report that he drew his gun? I saw one of the interviews with him that same day and he said he never drew it, he heard the shooting and clicked off the safety once he realized it was a shooting but never drew it.
ReplyDelete...Orygunner...
TS is right, I am very suspicious if a cop shoots someone before the someone gets a shot off. But, that is what the gun crowd claim CCW permits are all about, preventing these shootings. My point is they don't.
ReplyDeleteOnce again Mike, show me one CCW proponent who says they can stop a shooting BEFORE it happens (and somehow prove that they didn’t just murder and innocent person).
ReplyDeleteTS, That is your dilemma. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, even though there are vastly more places in the nation where guns are allowed than there are places where they aren't, the grand majority of mass shootings happen in the gun free zones.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that outliers exist does not mean that the known bell curve is incorrect.
You can attribute it to shooters being less likely to want to do shootings outside of gun free zones, or you can attribute it to them being less successful outside of gun free zones because of being stopped by guns before it turns into a mass murder, or you can attribute it to some combination of the two...but whatever you attribute it to, there would be fewer of them without the gun free zones.
The hypothesis that creating more areas without guns would make for less violence was just that: a hypothesis. But the experiment has been done, and the hypothesis isn't holding up. Time to admit that we need to throw out the hypothesis.
Or, since correlation does not causation make, there could be no connection at all. Mass shooters go to the place of their grievance in almost all cases regardless of the gun free status of the place.
Delete... And they're more likely to be taken down by a law-abiding citizen with a CCW, responsibly carrying in a non-gun-free zone than they are in a gun-free zone.
Delete