Again from Penigmahttp://www.blogger.com/img/blank.gif
The demographic for gun nuts, as reflected in the NRA membership, is old and white, flabby and crabby. My impression of a lot of these gun owners is that they are compensating for their lack of physical fitness as well as reflecting a more commonly right wing unreasonable fear and suspicion of the world. These individuals don't strike me as the optimum candidates to be entrusted with lethal weapons, no matter how often they claim they are safe. We have far too many incidents which suggests this is a correct assessment, that these people are a disaster, deliberate or accidental just waiting to happen. There may from time to time be variation in one or more of the characteristics, but overall, it seems a great rule of thumb to identify people we should not be allowing to arm, least of all permitting them to be armed in public, because they are a danger to themselves and to the rest of us. In that context, any and all 'Shoot First' laws should be repealed, effective immediately. We do not need these extra homicides or injuries from gun nuts shooting people. We need to return to the same premise in law that is respected in the rest of the world (the parts where they don't have only the tiniest fraction of the shootings we have ) of duty to retreat, a premise that it is better to let law enforcement do whatever shooting needs to be done, and that private individuals should only do so when there is no other alternative - and when they can do so safely without injuring an innocent victim.
Here is the latest:
Man shoots himself and wife -- at gun safety class
The Roanoke Times
By Duncan Adams
BEDFORD COUNTY
A firearms safety course went awry in Bedford County on Saturday afternoon when a participant shot himself in the hand with a .45-caliber handgun and the bullet passed through his hand and struck his wife, seated next to him, in the leg.
Shot were Michael L. Deel, 54, and Michelle K. Deel, 49, both of Roanoke. Emergency dispatchers in Bedford County received a call at 12:25 p.m. reporting a shooting on Chapel Woods Drive. The Bedford County Sheriff's Office said county rescue units and deputies responded.
The Deels were attending a firearms safety class being taught and hosted by Thomas Starke, 57, according to the department.
The sheriff's office said Starke told deputies that he had left the room, heard a shot and returned to find the Deels had been shot.
The couple was taken by ambulance to Carilion Roanoke Memorial Hospital with injuries that were not considered life-threatening.
The shooting remains under investigation.
why repost the same story already posted below?
ReplyDeleteYes, we've heard this story before. We've heard Dog Gone's racist, sexist, and agist remarks before. We've heard her bleating for us to act more like Europe. Of course, none of her comments are supported by the details of the story, but facts don't matter to her.
ReplyDeleteYou would think you'd look before you post. With any luck, maybe they won't look before crossing the street which would put everyone out of the misery of reading the same unoriginal, liberal, stinky-as-3-day-old-dead-fish stories. But it just goes to show, "the most violent element in society is ignorance." Thank you Emma Goldman for the quote.
ReplyDeleteorlin sellers
So what is the point of this? That people should not get firearms training? Surely this blog believes in "sane" people owning guns who are also properly trained right? It would not be to disarm people - with the exception of LE's . . . lots and lots of LE's right?
ReplyDeleteI think the point is that even in the most controlled of circumstances firearms prove to be extremely dangerous.
DeleteThe secondary point is that many people who opt to own firearms lack the basic physical and mental attributes the weapons absolutely require.
It does require a special type of inattention and utter lack of common sense to hurt yourself in the very strict confines of a gun safety class. These people, the Deals managed to hurt themselves in the short amount of time the instructor popped out the class. Think of that, gun owners who could not be left alone with their weapons for a few minutes without "adult supervision." This after the range master most likely told them to safe the handgun and place it out of reach. (Any Range Master worth the title would have been very clear on this subject of putting the weapons in safe and not touching the weapons until s/he returned.) I'm thinking that while these people had a right to own arms, maybe they should have not exercised that right. I'm thinking that maybe these people should not own a pea-shooter, never mind a .45 cal handgun, which I will repeat are hand cannons. (Only the .50 cal Desert Eagles pack a bigger punch.)
Only the .50 caliber Desert Eagle packs a bigger punch than a .45 a.c.p. 1911? Punch is a vague term, so let's look at some numbers: A typical .45 round has about 400 foot pounds of energy, give or take a bit. That's similar to a 9mm round. The .45 is fatter, but the 9mm moves faster. Staying in the ammunition for semiautomatics, a .357 Sig cartridge generates 800 foot pounds, again give or take some, depending on the brand. If we go to revolvers, .357 Magnum rounds are about the same as the Sig, but .44 Magnum is another breed altogether (over a thousand foot pounds, typically), and .454 Casull gets close to 2,000 foot pounds.
DeleteThe 1911 in its typical chambering of .45 a.c.p. is one of the best for self defense. The round has mild recoil because of the type and amount of powder used, and it depends on mass and diameter, rather than velocity, to do the job. This means that it's gentle to shoot, allowing for follow-up shots. The 1911 is also one of the slimmest full-size handguns going. That makes it easy to conceal and carry.
What do we learn here? James Ala, you don't know what you're talking about.
How about the 500 cal S&W, the 45-70, the 7.62X39, the .308. These can be had in handguns as well. All of which makes the .50 semiauto handgun feel like a .22 short.
DeleteI'm not surprised that this happened. The M1911A1 is a hand cannon; hard to hold, hard to aim, nasty kick. Still if this was a M1911A1 I am a little surprised that the man in question managed to over-ride the three safeties the handgun has. It takes a very special type of negligence to accidentally fire off the Colt. Still military members manage to do it all the time as Accident and injury reports attest to.
ReplyDeleteI do wonder who was running that gun line at Bedford County. You got to run those things absolutely paranoid because fools are really ingenious in the ways they managed to blow past the simplest of instructions.
The 1911 is a hand cannon? I find it to be easy to manage with not much recoil. To each his own, I suppose.
DeleteYeah amazing he was able to disengage the grip safety and half cock notch by gripping the gun normally and pulling the trigger.
DeleteAla is right. Anyone who says the 1911 is easy to handle is full of it. This is macho self-aggrandizing bullshit.
DeleteA Walther PPK or a little .22 pistol is easy to handle but when you get up to the 1911 it takes hand and arm strength and quite a bit of practice.
Arm strength? It weighs two and a half lbs and has a light SA trigger.
DeleteTo be sure, a .22 target pistol is easy to use. That's why it's a good training gun. But the 1911 is a pleasure to shoot. By comparison, the Walther PPK is tiny, so it's not as easy to control, and it has a heavier trigger. Read what experts say on the subject. A full-sized handgun is easier to operate, and the longer sight radius makes for better aiming. Most users see pocket guns as best for close-quarters fighting and as a last ditch measure.
DeleteMikeb, I'm willing to agree that one size doesn't fit all, so the Walther may be better for you than a 1911, but I do say that my 1911 is easy for me to handle. Are you calling me a liar now?
Ala,
ReplyDeleteSTFU about 1911s. You don't know what you're talking about.
"The M1911A1 is a hand cannon; hard to hold, hard to aim, nasty kick."
ReplyDeleteummm..what?? compared to my smith and wesson M&P which has a polymer frame my 1911 feels like shooting a .22..My 1911 is my goto gun for fast shooting.
"The M1911A1 is a hand cannon; hard to hold, hard to aim, nasty kick."
ReplyDeleteBWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
You know a big difference between us and gun grabbers like Mikey and Ala? They learn about guns from the movies and we learn about them by using them. It couldn't be more obvious from the hopelessly inept statements from those two above.
ReplyDeleteYou got me all wrong, Anonymous. You don't know the first thing about me.
DeleteMikeb, you said that a 1911 is hard to use. You said that anyone who claims otherwise is just trying to be macho. That comment gives us gun people a lot of information about you.
DeleteConsidering most gunloons are members of the 40-lb bench press club, a 1911 is like an anvil in their hands.
DeleteIn truth, most handguns are prohibitively difficult for gunloons because they're rather weak.
Greg, you think you're glimpsing into the Mikeb mind, do you?
DeleteMy opinion is the 1911 is a heavy, powerful weapon that has a pretty good kick to it. Many people don't like it for concealed carry for that very reason, except if they're so insecure they can't admit it. Others use it for the exact opposite reason, to overcompensate.
I'm sure to you it's just like a little .22 target pistol, huh Greg?
Mike - you seem to be completely ignoring all of the design information provided in the replies to this post.
DeleteJadegold, you just make up shit because it makes you feel good. Look at the nonsense that you just said. "Most handguns are prohibitively difficult for gunloons because they're rather weak." Huh? You really have no clue.
DeleteMikeb, the 1911 is a popular handgun for those of us who carry a gun concealed. Other popular designs are actually larger, and some are heavier. It is a big gun. But it's not hard to shoot. I do wish that you'd acknowledge that it may be hard for you, but you don't represent every handgun shooter.
In addition, you're attempts to psychoanalyze us are just plain stupid. For one, many of us deny the value of psychoanalysis altogether, but also, you don't know enough about us to do the analysis. The 1911 is manageable for carry, easy to shoot, and effective for self defense. We're not overcompensating, and we're not bluffing.
It's ok Mikey, I'd be embarrassed at being called out too. Waaahhhh, I'm misinderstood. Waaaaahhhhhh!
ReplyDeleteMike, and I mean this with all due respect, OK? There all likds and sizes of "1911" and each one will be different in a single caliber. The .45 in each variation will 'feel' completely different and they do because of the weight and size of them as well as the recoil spring rate for each one. This is why my sidearm is a full size 5" Colt .45 80 series that carries a 8 shot magaziine. Its all steel and the heaviest one made. The weight of the Colt allows me to get on target and stay on target because of its lack of recoil compared to the sub-compact alloy or plastic .45. The lighter the firearm, the heavier the recoil. The light weight 'carry' pistol can feel like they are going to tear your hand off. Those are harder to stay on target or it takes longer to re-aquire your target.
ReplyDeleteMy colt has no more recoil than my little light weight Bersa .380, in fact I belive the Bersa feels harder. I also have a very light weight Tauras .357 mag snub nose 5 shot revolver that will literally bruise your hand. My daughter purchased that one and couldnt handle it and gave it to me.
Its the difference between driving one of those old huge Caddys on a bumpy road and a Chevy Citation. That little car will beat you to death while that big land boat just floats over the road.
I understand why people choose to carry light weight pistols, they are small and comfortable. However I dont think they understand what they are getting into when they do choose one. It really doesnt matter what caliber.
I didnt choose the Colt .45 to be "Macho", I chose it because I can control it better than any of its counter parts. If someone is going to carry, they had better be able to control it. If not, well then bad things can happen.
With all due respect back to you, my only personal experience with the 1911 was in Marine Corps Basic Training when I was a skinny 17-year-old.
DeleteGosh, I cant remember being 17! LOLs! I have guns in my hands since I was knee high to a grass hopper. And I still cant remember if have ever shot a .22 caliber anything. I do remember that the very first long gun I had ever shot was a 10 gauge shotgun. Grandad kept picking me up off of my butt and said "do it again untill I could stand up after it fired" It took about a half a dozen times, but I did it. I still have that gun, and a few others my grandad had. I dont use them anymore but they are not going anywhere.
DeleteAs far as handguns, I simply cannot remember the first kind I shot then either except that I know it was a revolver. But he had so many different calibers back then. The hand gun for me is one I picked up on quickly and became very accurate with. So much so that by the time I was 18 (had to be 18 in order to enter the marksman contest) that I won the pistol sharp shooter 5 years in a row, all in first place. Four times with a revolver, .357 mag and the last time with a Springfield 1911 .45.
Man, that was a VERY long time ago! Back when things were simple and fun!
TCC, and I mean this with all due respect, OK? But you're full of crap from an engineering perspective.
ReplyDeleteA Caddy 'floats' over bumpy roads because its larger frame allows for a far bigger suspension than a Chevy Citation.
Of course, handguns have no suspension to dampen the force imparted to the frame. Your comment "The lighter the firearm, the heavier the recoil" is only true if the firearms are using the same ammo. Which is rarely the case. It is far more common for lightweight firearms to use correspondingly lighter calibers simply because the guns are constructed of lighter weight alloys to reduce weight.
Ahhhhhhhh hahahahahaha! Hilarious. Is this why my plastic framed Glock 20 is chambered in 10mm?
DeleteJade, your comment shows that you nothing about guns or engineering, nothing at all. There all kinds of guns that have "suspensions" that dampen the recoil. And there are hundereds of different sizes and weights of just the .45.
ReplyDeleteMy Colt has a large frame, like the Caddy. So it can absorb the shock along with it using the recoil energy to load a new bullet.
A Bersa .45 on the other hand, is like the Citation, weighing in at less than 1/3 the weight of the Colt shoots the exact same bullet will transmit more recoil energy into you hand. So its recoil is even harder even as it uses some of the recoil energy to load a new bullet.
A 16" .45 caliber rifle, still using the exact same bullet has almost no recoil felt as this firearm is still heavier than my Colt.
Note, all three examples use the same .45 out of the same box, the same caliber. They all have different recoil rates simply because of the gun used.
There are hundereds of .45 caliber guns out there, all different sizes and weights. Its not rare, its very common. And this same is applied to every size and caliber out there.
The only thing I can say to you is go put them all in your hands and shoot them before talking about what and how a gun works. Its obvious that you never have.
Hoo boy, we can add physics to the long list of subjects that Jadegold knows nothing about. Do the terms "mass," "inertia," and "spring" mean anything to you?
ReplyDelete1. A pump action shotgun produces more felt recoil than a semiautomatic shotgun of the same chambering. The semiautomatic uses the recoil energy to cycle the action, so that reduces the energy that's transferred to the shooter's shoulder.
2. There are a variety of recoil spring weights available for semiautomatic handguns. That being the case, one handgun would have different felt recoil with a different spring.
3. But let's compare two significantly different guns. I have a snub-nose Airweight revolver. It shoots a .38 Special round that generates around 200 foot pounds. My 1911 shoots a round that produces around 400 foot pounds. On those numbers alone, the 1911 should kick twice as hard, no?
But now we add some more facts. The snubby weighs 15.1 ounces--just under a pound--while the 1911 weighs about two and a half pounds. In addition, the recoil spring of the 1911 absorbes a lot of the energy, while the revolver has no such spring. Further, the grip of the 1911 is much larger, allowing for a stronger hold on the handgun. I love shooting my 1911, while I practice now and then with the Airweight, but it's more of a duty than a joy.
But Jadegold, do keep making inane comments. You're just helping our side.
Also, the 1911 isnt just a .45. The same size frame of any given 1911 can be a .45, .40, 10mm, 9mm, .380, even a .22 long rifle. And they all look identical in the same sized frame. Heck there is even one company that just brought out a 1911 chambered for the .357 mag.
ReplyDeleteA "1911" is commonly called that as every one makes a copy of the Colt 1911 which came out in,,,,,1911! The copies are so close, if not so exact that other brands of 1911 parts are directly interchangeable with the original article, the Colt. Colt makes their 1911 in every caliber, size and capacity. The also make them in alloy because of the demand for light weight carry weapons. You can get a Colt (or any other brand 1911) in a .45 as a small light weight alloy to the heavy steel full size. The same goes with every pistol caliber out there in the Colt or 1911 clone.
Gun compairison, its a 1911! Ok, which one?
Car compairison, its a GM! Ok, which one?