Monday, April 2, 2012

What's the Big Deal about Micro-stamping?

via The Truth About Guns.  It made me wonder what's the big deal about micro-stamping? They're already stamping all kinds of stuff on the cartridges.

33 comments:

  1. Yes, "they" are stamping things on the case. And that's not microstamping. That's visible to the naked eye. Microstamping would involve the firing pin. All the owner has to do is swap out that pin for a clean one or run a file over the pin a few times, and there's no mark any more. Or the bad guy can collect brass at a firing range where there's always some lying about to distribute at the crime scene. Of course, when the bad guy gets his gun across the Mexico border, It won't be one that makes a stamp, anyway. Or bad guys will use a lot more revolvers--those don't kick out the empties. The more sinister possibility is that corrupt cops will carry around some stamped brass to deposit at a crime scene.

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  2. "All the owner has to do is swap out that pin for a clean one or run a file over the pin a few times, and there's no mark any more."

    Which action would be taken in a heartbeat by a wholelotta OLAGO's; they can't be forced to obey gunzlawz they don't like.

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  3. Whatever happened to breechface microstamping, anyway? Oh, wait, Greg Camp didn't mention it, so it isn't possible.

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  4. The big deal about microstamping is that it will cost a truckload to implement and has shown to be very easy to defeat/circumvent if you are a criminal. What kind of idiot would go forward with such an expensive yet ineffective system?

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    1. Answer: the kind of idiot who wants it to cost a truckload to implement. Who cares if it works?

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  5. The stampings on the case head identify the caliber of the cartridge. This is important to be sure you're using the correct ammunition for your gun.

    @demokkkommie - the breechface can be be obliterated in about ten seconds with an angled file or a mini ball mill on a Dremel. The stamping area can also be eroded by hot gases when hard or undersized primers do not completely obdurate the primer pocket. Someone who fires hot .38 Super competition loads with rifle primers would become a criminal for defacing microstamps, by your desired rules.

    Also, I replace my striker or firing pin every 10k rounds, and they do break unexpectedly. It's a cheap replaceable part, not an integral part of the gun. You should actually learn about the things you want to ban.

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  6. "You should actually learn about the things you want to ban."

    And those of you who are such brave Pro-killing adherents of the NRA should stop putting lies like that one in your comments.

    Over the last one hundred years automakers have pissed and moaned about the ruinous expense of installing safety glass, dual zone, redundant braking systems, seatbelts, airbags, "crumple zones", safer fuel tanks and collapsible steering columns among other "safety" items. They are, obviously, still in business despite their prophecies of going bankrupt because of safety becoming a major factor in motor vehicle design.

    I know that you DON'T care about others who might be injured or killed because some bozo with a gun shoots them. Some of us do. We're not insecure to the point of needing deadly weapons to conduct our daily lives.

    "the breechface can be be obliterated in about ten seconds with an angled file or a mini ball mill on a Dremel.'

    It's so good of you to tell us all how you OLAGO's will break the gunzlawz that you don't like.

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    1. You're comparing apples to oranges. Imagine if the auto industry were to be forced to apply a special paint that rubs off onto pedestrians if they are run over. Let's say that there is something in this paint that makes it uniquely identifiable. This paint also adds 20% onto the cost of the car. Now let's say this paint is easily removed after some buffing of the car. Or after a certain amount of wear and tear it naturally disappears. Or maybe an aftermarket bumper or hood replacement would not contain this paint. Do you think the auto industry and the general public would accept this cost to implement an unproven method of maybe solving some hit and runs out there? I kinda doubt it. Not without a lot of studies and trial runs being performed.

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    2. Anon - why do you insist on making false car/gun analogies... everyone knows you can't compare cars and guns...

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    3. Well this car comparison was pretty inventive at least. The paint that rubs off, that's a good one.

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  7. "the breechface can be be obliterated in about ten seconds with an angled file or a mini ball mill on a Dremel."


    It must be a tremendous relief for you to know that you've ALREADY figured out to how to break the gunzlawz that you and other OLAGO's don't like.

    "You should actually learn about the things you want to ban."

    There you go again; telling or repeating a lie, like the Pro-killing adherent of the NRA that you seem to be.

    YOU could spend some time searching for any comments that I've made, on this blog or anywhere else, that call for banning or confiscating firearms. mikeb302000 advocates for considerably more regulation of firearms than I do--or ever have. Even his stance falls FAR short of adovacating for mass confiscation of teh gunz. YOU might try reading what I or mikeb302000 actually WRITE in posts or comments before spouting the shit and then stepping in it,

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  8. They are, obviously, still in business despite their prophecies of going bankrupt because of safety becoming a major factor in motor vehicle design.

    /bailout

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  9. @demokkkommie - Just admit the purpose of microstamping is to increase the cost of gun ownership, and be done with it. It's painful to watch you try to justify an expensive, racist, proprietary technology that's so demonstrably unreliable and easily bypassed. This is like proposing automobile VINs that are written in grease marker on the windshield.

    You people are like the pro lifers: you can't ban something, so you make it prohibitively inconvenient and expensive.

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  10. Even if the microstamp is defaced, many won't be. Not all criminals are savvy enough to think about it. Even if just 50% of guns have microstamps that aren't defaced, we're talking about an additional 50,000 shootings where it could help identify the shooter.

    As for replacements: again, not all criminals will bother or think about it. For those who do, the replacement parts can also be microstamped.

    As to the comment about it being defaced from normal usage, that's bogus. There are metal alloys which can be used which won't be warped from usage. It's just a matter of requiring their usage.

    No, the real reason the Gun Guyzz don't want microstamping is because they are pro-criminal types who will oppose anything that might actually catch the shooter or keep guns out of their hands to start with.

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    1. No, the real reason the Gun Guyzz don't want microstamping is because they are pro-criminal types who will oppose anything that might actually catch the shooter or keep guns out of their hands to start with.

      That's certainly an interesting twist. I think what you'll find among most 2A supporters is that for the majority, we prefer stronger sentences for violent criminals, less intrusion by the government and don't support wasteful tax spending.

      There is no proven microstamping technology and it would be a waste of taxpayer money just like the NY Combined Ballistic Identification System.

      Most crime guns have a time to crime of about 10 years, so you'd be looking at maintaining a database (the NY CoBIS cost $4M annually) for 10 years before the benefits would be realized. By then, I'm sure someone would come up with the idea of a brass catcher. Oops, I let the cat out of the bag.

      Microstamping would require registration and we're strongly opposed to that and again, would be ineffective since the 5A and SCOTUS prevents criminals from having to register their firearms.

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    2. Man from Oregon, what if the bad guy carries a revolver? Are you aware that revolvers don't kick out the empties?

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    3. Buzzzzzzzzzzzz, WRONG!!!! you cannot show me a single metal that is impervious to wear......

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  11. Democommie you never seem to have time to call for a gun ban with all the smearing you do of gunowners (or is it loonz?).

    Microstamping also wouldn't even effect criminals who use stolen guns, you know how tricky criminals can be breaking that law against stealing before breaking the one against shooting people. Thats aside from all the easy dodges already posted here.

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  12. "/bailout"

    One who sees such simple answers to complex problems can be expected to be a Pro-killing adherent of the NRA.

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    1. And microstamping isn't a simple and ineffective answer to a complex problem?

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  13. Oh, where to start?

    "The big deal about microstamping is that it will cost a truckload to implement and has shown to be very easy to defeat/circumvent if you are a criminal. What kind of idiot would go forward with such an expensive yet ineffective system?"

    Citation required, actually several citations required. When you make assertions that you can't back up? they're generally bullshit.

    "Answer: the kind of idiot who wants it to cost a truckload to implement. Who cares if it works?"

    If you're aiming that at me, TS, you're lying. If not, who are you talking about?

    "You're comparing apples to oranges. Imagine if the auto industry were to be forced to apply a special paint that rubs off onto pedestrians if they are run over. Let's say that there is something in this paint that makes it uniquely identifiable. This paint also adds 20% onto the cost of the car..."

    I imagine you'd need a citation supporting both the 20% figure for the cost of the paint AND a 20% figure for the cost of the gun.

    "Now let's say this paint is easily removed after some buffing of the car. Or after a certain amount of wear and tear it naturally disappears. Or maybe an aftermarket bumper or hood replacement would not contain this paint."

    Are you saying that these items' costs would be inconsequential? Guess again.

    FWIW, there is already a lot of information available to law enforcement re: motor vehicle's. Paint, glass, tires and the VIN number all aid police agencies in finding motor vehicles involved in accidents or crimes (think the first WTC bombing and the OK City bombing).

    "Do you think the auto industry and the general public would accept this cost to implement an unproven method of maybe solving some hit and runs out there? I kinda doubt it. Not without a lot of studies and trial runs being performed."

    I think in trial law they call that last paragraph an example of "asked and answered". I don't THINK, I KNOW, that the auto industry, the food industry, the drug industry, the ladder industry, the power tool industry and a whole fuckton of industries are required, by law, to make safe products. They are required to do so, without the general public having any direct vote on the matter. In many cases those laws and codes are required without the leges having a say in it. You're really barking up the wrong tree.

    "@demokkkommie - Just admit the purpose of microstamping is to increase the cost of gun ownership, and be done with it. It's painful to watch you try to justify an expensive, racist, proprietary technology that's so demonstrably unreliable and easily bypassed. This is like proposing automobile VINs that are written in grease marker on the windshield."

    Well, first of all, I would have to actually THINK that the object was to increase the cost of making gunz. Truth is, I don't give a flying fuck if they cost more or less.

    "racist, proprietary technology", you need to breath, sport. The whole racist thing is, like, wtf? As for proprietary technology? you're against that? Explain why. Also explain HOW it's proprietary.

    The gunzloonz mantra to change that might make it easier to identify miscreants, "It's stupid, it's expensive and shut up!, that's why". Pathetic.

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  14. Greg Camp:

    "And microstamping isn't a simple and ineffective answer to a complex problem?"

    Oh, dear; you didn't get the memo from your gunzloonzpalz, did you?

    It's WAY TOO EXPENSIVE, Greg, your gunzloonzpalz say so, thus it must be true.

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    1. There can't be more than one problem with this?

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  16. Greg Camp:

    "There can't be more than one problem with this?"

    We have no way of knowing if there are ANY problems with it, until it is actually attempted. Apparently, though, you're just completely out of step with your gunzloonzpalz--the ones bleating about the EXPENSIVE program that is only being suggested so that you'll all have to pay more to haz teh gunz--and they might lock you out of their treefort if you keep it up. It is of the utmost importance that your gunzloonzpalz and you all memorize the same talking points from the NRA. They must sell tapes that you can listen to while you're sleeping.

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    1. I don't get my ideas from the NRA, thank you, but I won't apologize for not fitting into your narrative.

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    2. Demmocommie,

      I believe the state of New York already experimented with microstamping. Look up the articles. They will tell you how it cost an-arm-and-a-leg and didn't solve any crimes.

      And regardless, you still haven't addressed the huge problem with someone collecting and spreading around already-fired brass casing.

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  17. Cap'n Crunch:

    "I believe the state of New York already experimented with microstamping. Look up the articles."

    Ummm, no. You make the claim; it's up to you to provide links or citations. kthxbye.

    Greg Camp:

    "I don't get my ideas from the NRA, thank you, but I won't apologize for not fitting into your narrative.".

    Really? Well, then Greg Camp, where DO they come from. That they parrot the NRA's talking points is not really debatable. Is it possible that both you and the NRA make shit up?

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    1. The legislature of New York has considered microstamping bills from time to time, but they haven't passed.

      Where do I get my ideas? I read, and I think. You can't bring yourself to consider the idea that the leaders of the NRA do the same, but that's not my fault.

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    2. "...the New York Combined Ballistic Identification System (CoBIS), a tracking system for ammunition that has failed to solve a single gun crime since it was implemented 10 years ago."


      “The CoBIS system has completely failed to deter any criminal activity in New York State and only serves to burden responsible gun owners who already comply with the law. As the primary sponsor of this legislation, I encourage the members of the State Assembly to join the Senate in ending this irresponsible waste of our taxpayer’s money.”

      http://www.nysenate.gov/press-release/state-senate-enacts-senator-nozzolio-s-legislation-discontinue-expensive-ineffective-b

      Here you go genius. BTW I am not sure why you think calling you raciest is WTF? You are calling everyone who doesn’t support you position pro-killing, pro-murderers. You must live in some alternate universe where you are always right. I hope you live in Atlanta and when you get confronted by a criminal in your house killing you with a knife (the next thing I am sure you would like to ban) while you are waiting for the cops to show up 11 mins and 12 seconds (average, it could be longer) I hope before that criminal kills you your LAGOing neighbor saves your raciest butt. This is coming from someone who scared a robber out of his neighbor’s house and then waited an hour for the cops to show up (sorry I don’t have a link to back that one up for you).

      http://apbweb.com/featured-articles/1188-response-times-city-to-city.html


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  18. It would seem that the realized benefits of microstamping are uncertain at best.

    http://www.officer.com/article/10249197/microstamping-calls-the-shots

    Page, Douglas. "Microstamping Calls The Shots." Law Enforcement Technology. 2008. Volume 35. Issue 1. 54

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    1. Thanks for that link. It's a very interesting article.

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