Friday, December 16, 2011

Ah, Those Dangerous, Lawless Tea Party Criminals

This is for RedAz;  it is an ongoing concern to me that pro-gunners are convinced they know the laws and rules governing firearms.  They insist they know better than any of the rest of us what those laws are.

But, clearly, that is not necessarily true.

From Politico:

Mark Meckler, tea party leader, arrested with gun


In this Nov. 3, 2010, file photo Tea Party Patriots co-founder Mark Meckler speaks at a news conference. | AP Photo
A prominent tea party leader was charged with a felony Thursday after he took a gun to New York City’s LaGuardia Airport and it was discovered during a pre-flight check-in.
Mark Meckler, co-founder of the conservative Tea Party Patriots group, was arrested after he tried to check in for a Delta airlines flight with a locked box containing a Glock pistol and 19 units of 9mm ammunition, according to a release from the Queens District Attorney’s office.
Meckler, who had been in New York since Sunday, allegedly told authorities that he carries the gun because he gets threats.
The tea party leader has a permit to carry the weapon in California, but that state’s permit does not allow one to carry a firearm in New York.
“He didn’t have a correct understanding of the law,” said Al Della Fave, a spokesman for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which operates LaGuardia, according to the AP. “Though he has a permit to carry in California, that did not cover him in the state of New York.”
The tea party leader’s lawyer argued that he was “in temporary transit through the state of New York in possession of an unloaded, lawful firearm,” and that Mr. Meckler had been fully compliant with all laws, according to The New York Times.
Meckler was arraigned on charges of second-degree criminal possession of a weapon, a felony that could carry up to 15 years in prison. He was released pending a Jan. 12 court date.
“Before leaving home, passengers should acquaint themselves with the weapons laws of the jurisdiction that they are visiting and comply with any and all legal requirements if they choose to travel with a weapon. Otherwise, they may find themselves being arrested and charged with a felony — as is what occurred in this case,” warned Queens District Attorney Richard Brown.
The Tea Party Patriots group, which Meckler helped found in 2009, has played a major organizational role in the tea party movement — particularly in the demonstrations that were held across the country to encourage government to rein in debt and to oppose President Barack Obama’s initiatives on health care.

43 comments:

  1. There have been legal gun owners who followed all the rules, but were arrested anyway. See Revell v. Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. It is true that not many states recognize a California permit--perhaps because California refuses to recognize anyone else's?

    Thus the need for the National Right to Carry Reciprocity Act to become law.

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  2. Dog Gone,

    You apparently believe or once believed that you know the laws and how to use a handgun to defend yourself. That belief is based on no more or less support than ours.

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  3. Anyone who thinks gun laws are fair and intelligible should read up on determining pre-ban vs post-ban Glock mags in MA.

    These laws are intended to harass, not keep anyone safe.

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  4. Gunzloon doesn't bother to find out what's going on in the state he's travelling to? Fuck him.

    And you people expect others to trust you when you can't be bothered to follow the law.

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  5. The point is he did follow the law and was arrested for it. If he instead just sneaked it on the plane, he may be a free man right now.

    But that is New York where if you follow the same law used in airports all over the nation and proscribed by the TSA, you are still a criminal. HR822 can't come fast enough.

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  6. The article doesn't say if the accused was carrying concealed in New York. All it stated is that he had it locked in a container and that it was unloaded. If he simply had it with him, locked in a container and unloaded, how can that possibly be illegal anywhere in the U.S.??? (I mean in general areas of any state ... not referring to the secured area of airports, etc.)

    Now if he carried it concealed in New York, he broke New York state law. I don't believe New York's concealed carry laws are constitutional but that is an entirely different matter for a different discussion.

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  7. Democommie,

    You don't see my name in reports like this.

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  8. "The point is he did follow the law and was arrested for it. If he instead just sneaked it on the plane, he may be a free man right now."

    This:

    "It is unlawful for any person to carry, possess or transport a handgun in or through the state unless he has a valid New York license. (A provision of federal law provides a defense to state or local laws which would prohibit the passage of persons with firearms in interstate travel if the person is traveling from any place where he may lawfully possess and transport a firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and transport such firearm and the firearm is unloaded and in the trunk. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm shall be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console)."

    is from here (http://www.nyfirearms.com/blog/nys-gun-laws/)

    looks like he broke the law.

    More to the point, FatWhiteMan, when you and others point out that your methods for dealing with law that you find overly restrictive might include simply ignoring them it makes the term LAGO go right out the window.

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  9. FWM, he didn't follow the law; he was allowed to have the firearm in a locked container in his luggage where he could not access it during the flight.

    Had he done that, he wouldn't have been arrested. He did NOT follow the law.

    I suspect he might not have been arrested either, if he had his ammo in a separate container,also not accessible to him.

    The problem is he wanted his firearm with him where he could access it and use it while traveling on that plane, posing a danger to others. That is the reason for the law, which I'm sure you understand.

    I'd like to know how you think he'd be able to 'sneak' it onto the airplane, given current security, with any reliable expectation of that working.

    Or do you admit this is another of your 'cricket' statements, where there is no intelligent point to your argument?

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  10. "Accidently" breaking a law like this is just like having a negligent discharge. Both are unacceptable and unexplainable. Anyone capable of such stupidity should lose his gun rights.

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  11. What is NOT clear to me from the report and the news release of the Queens District Attorney's office is if the AIRLINE discovered the Glock and ammo,or if he told them he had it.

    I'd give a heckuva lot more slack to someone who tells an airline they have the firearm with them, and are attempting to comply with the law, perhaps looking for a policy clarification to do so, versus someone who just hopes no one will notice as it goes through the bag check x-ray process.

    If Meckler was in fact cooperating with trying to declare his weapon and was willing to transport it in a lawful way, that's NOT something he should fairly be faulted for, much less arrested. He should be complimented for doing so.

    But if, as it seems from the news article and the press release, he felt that he was entitled to flout the law because he received nebulous threats at home in California.

    I know better than to transport a weapon with the ammo in the same container where there are strict provision for how one does so.

    So either Meckler really WAS trying to dodge the law because he thought he was special and the law didn't apply to him, (or he didn't like the law) or he made a simple mistake. That the ammo was in the box which appears to have been carry on luggage along with the gun makes me think this was the former.

    Once again, we have an example of a ccw who thinks he is more important than the lives of others.

    I'd take bets right now that those 'threats' he mentions are pretty nebulous and amount to the 'I hate your guts' intemperate speech rather than anything more specific or violent, much less the even more serious statements where someone indicates they are actually going to do something bad to you or your family, staff, and/or associates.

    In other words, I am speculating that Mr. Meckler doesn't really have the need for his firearms because of a serious and valid claim of threats. An exaggerated notion of being threatened, a preoccupation that is not proportionate to any actual threat, seems to characterize guys like this, and SOME other gun nuts.

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  12. MikeB wrote: mikeb302000 said...

    "Accidently" breaking a law like this is just like having a negligent discharge. Both are unacceptable and unexplainable. Anyone capable of such stupidity should lose his gun rights.


    I wouldn't go that far without more details Mike. If I have the time on Monday or Tuesday, I think I'll call the Queens DA and ask some further questions, including the nature of and how serious those 'threats' were.

    In the past when I was writing on the jerk James O'Keefe, looking into exactly how he altered the content of his videos I had some amazing luck with getting prompt and thorough responses from the Brooklyn DA - in fact, for responses from an authority, I'd say they were the best I've ever had in all respects.

    I'm hoping the Queens DA will be good as well, but it's a hard standard to live up to, that Brooklyn DA's office.

    If I get any answers worth sharing, if there is any additional info on the news report or the press release by the DA, I'll report back here. I don't want to rush to a judgment that is THAT harsh without a lot more info.

    There seems to me a big difference between a misunderstanding of the law and an actual dangerous accidental discharge.

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  13. "FWM, he didn't follow the law; he was allowed to have the firearm in a locked container in his luggage where he could not access it during the flight.

    Had he done that, he wouldn't have been arrested. He did NOT follow the law."


    Uh, read it again. That is EXACTLY what he was doing. He was "caught" when he declared it at the counter PER TSA ESTABLISHED PROCEDURE.

    "I suspect he might not have been arrested either, if he had his ammo in a separate container,also not accessible to him."

    His ammunition was packaged precisely per TSA regulation.

    "The problem is he wanted his firearm with him where he could access it and use it while traveling on that plane, posing a danger to others. That is the reason for the law, which I'm sure you understand."

    He most certainly did not. It was in a locked container with the ammo in his CHECKED luggage per proscribed TSA procedure.

    "I'd like to know how you think he'd be able to 'sneak' it onto the airplane, given current security, with any reliable expectation of that working."

    That was a jab at the stories that were posted here a few weeks ago about the number of handguns caught in TSA screening and the speculation by either you or one of your co-bloggers that if these were caught then there must be plenty that make it through the screening.

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  14. Uh, read it again. That is EXACTLY what he was doing. He was "caught" when he declared it at the counter PER TSA ESTABLISHED PROCEDURE.

    I think you are incorrect here FWM. You go through a check in procedure when you show up at the airport that gets your carry on luggage tagged not just your luggage going in the baggage compartment.

    But I'll get the clarification by calling the DA as to what he did precisely and why it was illegal. If it is as lawful as you assert, then I don't think they have a valid basis to bring charges, and I don't think he would be claiming he needed it for his self-defense ON THE PLANE.

    But, let's get answers rather than wrangle. That contributors here like Laci and I get facts and try to be more accurate than news sources or other blogs is one of the qualities which I hope distinguishes this blog from others as being better.

    So, can we table this until the DAs office is open please?

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  15. "If Meckler was in fact cooperating with trying to declare his weapon and was willing to transport it in a lawful way, that's NOT something he should fairly be faulted for, much less arrested. He should be complimented for doing so."

    Glad to see that you agree with common sense. He did everything EXACTLY how TSA specifies. He did everything EXACTLY like he has done one many other flights and EXACTLY like it is done every day in every airport in the U.S. except for New York.

    This is not a CCW issue. He was not carrying a loaded gun, concealed, ready at hand. He was transporting it unloaded in a TSA approved locked case.

    The next time you are at Minneapolis/St. Paul airport, notice that there are posted instructions on how to LEGALLY transport your gun and a special line to stand in to do so--I have seen it in the main terminal there on several occasions. I have noticed the same, posted instructions at Columbus International, Dayton Airport and even ISLIP, New York. I am told these same instructions are posted at Laguardia too but I have never flown from there to see them personally. Meckler followed these instructions to a tee.

    What New York is charging him with is not having a valid New York pistol license which is not legal for him to obtain as a California resident. They are basically saying "you can't continue your journey through our airports without a license and we won't give you one".

    This is not new. There have been several instances of New York not honoring the Federal travel laws before. If you legally declare a handgun when leaving one airport and are flying to another destination where it is also legal for you to own it and you are forced to deplane in New York for a delay, mechanical breakdown, etc., The Port Authority are waiting with your luggage to take you into custody and charge you with a crime. Really, your opinions of the whole gun issue aside, is that fair or common sense?

    Had he done this at any other airport in the country, he would be following Federal law. This is not a CCW issue but this sort of nonsense and injustice will be fixed with HR822. It cannot come soon enough to stop New York's bullshit.

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  16. Just saw your second post between the two I made.

    The accounts I read said that he was "caught" when he declared the pistol per the law as he and done when travelling before. I am curious to see what you find out from the DA.

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  17. I know you suggested we table this until you find out more but I found this with quotes from the DA's office.

    "According to the Queens District Attorney’s office, Meckler arrived at the airport with the gun, a Glock 27, and ammunition locked in a safe and presented it to the flight attendant at the Delta counter."

    "Meckler’s lawyer did not dispute the basic facts of the story, but said that his client followed routine procedure for transporting a weapon. In an e-mail to reporters, attorney Brian Stapleton wrote:

    “Mark Meckler, an attorney and National Coordinator for Tea Party Patriots, who holds a concealed-carry permit from the state of California, today was charged with a firearms violation at LaGuardia Airport in New York City. While in temporary transit through the state of New York in possession of an unloaded, lawful firearm that was locked in a TSA-approved safe, he legally declared his possession of the firearm in his checked baggage at the ticket counter as required by law and in a manner approved by TSA and the airline, yet was arrested by port authority for said possession."


    "A spokesman for the Queens DA, Kevin Ryan, told TPM that the legal issue wasn’t whether Meckler followed airline regulations regarding safe transportation of a handgun, the issue was that he did not have a carry permit for New York state, which has strict requirements for handguns.

    “We get 50 or 60 case a year of people transporting weapons at the airport which may be legal in their state, but because they’re not licensed for New York they run into trouble,” Ryan said.


    Yes, this is an ongoing problem in New York. People have become felons solely because their connecting flights were cancelled or postponed or when their travel requires them to board a plane in New York.

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  18. Meckler's a lawyer. If he ran afoul of a law that he either didn't know about it or didn't understand then he's an idiot.

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  19. If you are correct FWM, then Meckler was indeed wrongly arrested and the DA is the one who should be in trouble.

    However, I think there must be more to this story than that and I wouldn't be surprised if there turns out to be a significant detail that isn't included here.

    There had to be something that triggered this at the ticket counter; I would bet you that there are more than 50 or 60 people who are appropriately carrying a firearm transiting that airport who don't get in trouble.

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  20. Dog Gone,

    I named a case in which the defendant's flight was late, so he lost a connection. He was arrested for having a handgun in the State of New York, despite having followed the required procedures. Comment?

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  21. "There had to be something that triggered this at the ticket counter; I would bet you that there are more than 50 or 60 people who are appropriately carrying a firearm transiting that airport who don't get in trouble."

    The difference between him and the others is that they probably hold New York Pistol licenses. In New York you must obtain a pistol license before you can own, possess or even get training for a handgun. Only residents may obtain these licenses. New York has been arresting out of state residents that travel under FOPA Federal laws--these are unloaded, locked up guns, not carrying concealed. Even uptight Illinois that has a Firearms Owners ID card recognizes travel under federal law.

    I think you will find Monday that Meckler is only charged with possession of his pistol without a New York pistol license that they will not issue to him. He is not charged with carrying a loaded firearm or violating TSA transporting rules.

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  22. Revell v. Port Authority of New York and New Jersey

    Lost at trial, lost on appeal, denied cert by SCotUS. That is the same SCotUS that you gunzloonz REALLT LUVZ when they give you Heller v McDonald or maybe not?

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  23. I think what New York is saying is "don't come through our airports with a gun." That's sure inconvenient, but if that's the law, it's up to the gun owner to know it and obey it.

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  24. Mikeb302000,

    What if a person never had any intention of going to New York and got sent there due to an airline screwup?

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  25. "What if a person never had any intention of going to New York and got sent there due to an airline screwup?"

    Then he damned well better have the presence of mind to have the aircraft commander call the airport and alert them to a security issue OR find a gate agent, cop or other airport official before proceeding to the baggage claim.

    Yeah, it's too bad if an OLAGO is inconvenienced. Not quite as bad as someone's being killed because a meathead like Greg Camp mistakes a medical condition or other circumstance for a "threat" to his person/property.

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  26. The problem is that he was in New York for four days. The DA's office is not charging him for having a pistol while traveling through New York. They are charging him for having it in his possession in New York for four days -- regardless of whether he carried it concealed or kept it in the locked box the entire time. Had he been traveling through New York, he would have never had the box in his position: it would have been in his checked luggage and it would have been moved through the airport internally.

    Now what other people said is true about a huge hassle if you are traveling to a different state and your plane is rerouted to New York because of weather or mechanical problem. I don't what you do in that case. Grab your luggage and "sneak" out of New York in taxi or something?????

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  27. I tried posting a comment and I believe I did something wrong so I am typing it again.

    I am pretty confident that the DA's office charged him because he was in New York for four (4) days. I don't believe they would have charged him if he simply had a layover in a New York airport. In that instance his pistol would have been in checked luggage and it would have routed through the airport's internal luggage handling system and he never would have had possession of it.

    Now if you are unexpectedly rerouted to New York because of bad weather or a mechanical problem, that would seem a "no win" situation. I have no idea what you would do in that case. Pick up your luggage at the luggage claim and try to "sneak" out of New York via a taxi??????

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  28. "Then he damned well better have the presence of mind to have the aircraft commander call the airport and alert them to a security issue OR find a gate agent, cop or other airport official before proceeding to the baggage claim."

    No good bro. If it made it to the baggage claim he had constructive possession of it and committed a crime. These are the rational gun laws you people support. Nice job!

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  29. "Then he damned well better have the presence of mind to have the aircraft commander call the airport and alert them to a security issue..."

    I wonder how that would that go over? Beat on the cockpit door and yell, "I have a gun. Notify the airport that you have a security issue now!"

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  30. MAssivelymoronicgunzowner:

    "No good bro. If it made it to the baggage claim he had constructive possession of it and committed a crime. These are the rational gun laws you people support. Nice job!"

    FatWhiteMan:

    "I wonder how that would that go over? Beat on the cockpit door and yell, "I have a gun. Notify the airport that you have a security issue now!""

    Thanks to the pair of you for illustrating the complete lack of honesty in framing that exists between the gunzloonz and the rational members of society.

    Both of you make wildly hyperbolic statements.

    My comment:

    "Then he damned well better have the presence of mind to have the aircraft commander call the airport and alert them to a security issue OR find a gate agent, cop or other airport official before proceeding to the baggage claim."

    does not in any way suggest that he either cause a disturbance on the aircraft while it's in flight OR that he take possession of his gun BEFORE talking to anyone in a position of authority.

    If what Cap'n Crunch alludes to, about Meckler spending FOUR days in NYC with the gun in his possession, is true, well, then fuck it, he broke the law. But, I'm sure that's okay with you fellaz, 'cuz it's just a shitty anti-gunz law and it orta be broke. What's that line? Oh, yeah.

    "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.".

    Oooooh, just found this:

    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/tea-party-member-brings-gun-nyc-airport-arrested/story?id=15165432

    Sorry, Markymoron, ignorance of the law and all that jazz.

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  31. Democommie,

    The man who spent four days in New York was Revell, and those four days were not his fault. Was he supposed to leave his handgun in the care of the baggage handlers during that time? Perhaps he should have left it on a bench. What was he supposed to do with it? He had complied with the law, and the law screwed him.

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  32. "Thanks to the pair of you for illustrating the complete lack of honesty in framing that exists between the gunzloonz and the rational members of society.

    Both of you make wildly hyperbolic statements."


    Demo, it was your statement, not mine or Greg's. So what again would your method be for getting to talk to the captain of a commercial aircraft about your gun then if what I said wasn't what you were yammering about?

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  33. "The man who spent four days in New York was Revell, and those four days were not his fault."

    Read.The.Fucking.Story.

    That's why I provided a link. Or do you think ABC is conspiring with me and dog gone to have them get it wrong?

    You're really too fucking stupid to be entrusted with the teaching of impressionable kids.

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  34. Democommie,

    I read your link. That's not the case that I referred to, but yours does raise an important point. The handgun was locked up. The only violation was that the ammunition was locked in the same box. Please explain the purpose of the law in question. Both gun and ammunition were unavailable for use by the owner. What possible reason is there for making it a crime that the owner didn't use separate boxes? The law in question is stupid, and it's a good reason to stay out of New York.

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  35. Following up on Greg's point, Capn Crunch says:

    "Now if you are unexpectedly rerouted to New York because of bad weather or a mechanical problem, that would seem a "no win" situation. I have no idea what you would do in that case. Pick up your luggage at the luggage claim and try to "sneak" out of New York via a taxi??????"

    I suppose it depends on the circumstances, but if the stopover in New York was unplanned, I would hope the judge would take that into consideration when passing sentence, in the unlikely event that the unlucky traveller was arrested.

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  36. "I read your link. That's not the case that I referred to, but yours does raise an important point. The handgun was locked up. The only violation was that the ammunition was locked in the same box.

    JESUS CHRIST with a SAW M-249, how fucking much stupid can you pack into three sentences?

    He was in NY for FOUR FUCKING DAYS. NY and especially NYC have very strict laws on the possession and carry of handgunz. What he did, carrying a handgun, is a felony in NYC, even if he had a regular NY handgun license (he did not). It doesn't matter if the gun was in a fucking Acme safe with extry rope and chain wrapped around it. If it was in his possession, that possession was a felony under NY law.

    You and your moron gunzloonz pals claim to be LAGO's but a lot of you, including Markymarksman can't even be bothered to ascertain that they CAN'T take their fucking gunz into some places without violating the law in that jurisdiction.

    You are fucking stupid.

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  37. Democommie,

    Who's stupid here? Revell had no intention of going to New York. What was he supposed to do when his flight got diverted? Jump out in mid-air?

    Why can't you admit that in this case, the law of New York isn't about safety. It's about some legislator who just had to pass a piece of feel-good crap.

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  38. FatWhiteMan:

    Sorry for not getting back to you sooner for this:

    "Demo, it was your statement, not mine or Greg's. So what again would your method be for getting to talk to the captain of a commercial aircraft about your gun then if what I said wasn't what you were yammering about?".

    They have those "call button" thingies on aircraft. You push one and when the flight attendant comes to see what you need, you tell them that you need to speak with the crew supervisor about a matter that requires notifying the authorities at the airport where you will be landing.

    I haven't been in more than a coupld of dozen airports in my life, but everyone I have been in has had a police presence and those police are not usually anxious to harass the fare paying public.

    It is doable and not terribly difficult to do.

    Greg Camp:

    Once again, you demonstrate (as if it was necessary) that you are one dumb sonuvabitch.

    This:

    "3 Revell stated that he did not check to make
    sure that he could carry his firearm in Pennsylvania prior to
    traveling there, but believed that it was legal for him to carry a
    weapon there because the instructor for his concealed firearm
    permit class did not mention that he could not do so.
    4Section 2C:39-5(b) provides that “[a]ny person who
    knowingly has in his possession any handgun, ... without first
    having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in
    N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime” of the second or third degree
    depending on the nature of the handgun. Section 2C:39-3(f)
    provides that “[a]ny person, ... who knowingly has in his
    possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, ... is guilty of a
    crime of the fourth degree.”

    is from here (http://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/092029p.pdf)

    the linked document is the transcript of the appeal in U.S. Federal Court which, subsequent to Revell losing his case in NJ's state courts, he also lost.

    You have got to be one of the dumbest fucking teachers I have ever dealt with.

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  39. As I thought, Democommie won't speak to the stupidity of the law.

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  40. "As I thought, Democommie won't speak to the stupidity of the law."

    Really? Is that the question you were asking? This ain't "Jeopardy" but I still think ya gotz to ask a question.

    No, sorry, Greg Camp, you're being a FUCKING LIAR and a FUCKING WEASEL is pretty much self-evident. The burnin' stoopit in you is industrial strength.

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  41. "They have those "call button" thingies on aircraft. You push one and when the flight attendant comes to see what you need, you tell them that you need to speak with the crew supervisor about a matter that requires notifying the authorities at the airport where you will be landing."
    Assuming that they let you talk to the pilot, what good does that really serve. It is not about notifying TSA that you have a firearm, that is what Meckler did and it does not protect you from New York's nonsense.

    I haven't been in more than a coupld of dozen airports in my life, but everyone I have been in has had a police presence and those police are not usually anxious to harass the fare paying public."

    Obviously you haven't been in New York then where they obviously are anxious to harass the fare paying public. The DA spokesman said so himself.

    "“We get 50 or 60 case a year of people transporting weapons at the airport which may be legal in their state, but because they’re not licensed for New York they run into trouble,” Ryan said.

    No other state is routinely arresting travelers that follow TSA procedures.

    What Doggone will find when she talks to the DA is exactly what I have been saying all along. Meckler was not charged with any federal or TSA violations and followed the law precisely. He was arrested under a local New York law for not having the state's permission to own a firearm and they will not issue that permit to any out of state resident.

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  42. FatWhiteMan:

    ""“We get 50 or 60 case a year of people transporting weapons at the airport which may be legal in their state, but because they’re not licensed for New York they run into trouble,” Ryan said."

    What part of "Breakin' the law, breakin the law" don't you get?

    Meckler isn't some shlub who inadvertently got diverted to NYC. He flew there by design. He's a lawyer. He didn't bother to check as to whether his gunz could be carried there and he got popped. HR 822 isn't on the books , yet. Too fucking bad.

    You and your co-dependents want to go all, "We're LAGO's", but then you fuck up, big time. Obvious FAIL.

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  43. Are people responsible for their actions or not?

    It may be a "stupid law," and New York may "harass" the poor persecuted gun owners, but are people responsible for their actions or not?

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