Thursday, August 2, 2012

"Wild Assertions With No Evidence"

It appears Greggy Camp has had his fee-fees hurt by my posting of a story concerning NRA member Walton Bulter.  Greggy has charged me with making "wild assertions with no evidence" and other assorted calumnies.

But is Greggy's complaint valid?  Let's see.

Doing a search on Walton Butler yields about 14M hits, the vast majority relaying the same story as my post.  Thus, if I made up the story as Greggy suggests, there are a whole lot of media outlets engaged in the same subterfuge.

Of course, Greggy's heartburn with my post concerns the implications that: a.) gunloons sometimes do illegal things like shooting people; and b.) gunloons often have racist tendencies.  Well, we only have to look at gun homicide numbers in the US to see that (a) is true.  But what of (b)?

As I've sagely noted on numerous occasions, one only need to go to a gunshow for evidence.  You'll find no shortage of vendors hawking Nazi memorabilia.  You'll also find various white separatist/supremacist material.  And--you'll certainly find copies of the most-read gunloon 'literature'--"The Turner Diaries"--which fantasizes about a race war.

But you can always go to NRA leadership for examples of racism.


  1. No, you blithering infant, you missed it entirely. My points, as I've made to you repeatedly, are as follows:

    1. You have no evidence that Butler or anyone else is a member of the NRA.

    2. You have no evidence that he is a member of the board of the NRA.

    3. You have no evidence that I or the majority of gun owners are racists.

    4. There's nothing sage about you, either vegetable or intellectual.

  2. Greggy: Addressing your 'points' one-by-one:

    1: Butler is a member of the NRA and sports a bumpersticker saying so on his truck.

    2. My post title was "Another *Potential* NRA Board Member" Perhaps you need to look up 'potential.'

    3. I disagree; the evidence is pretty clear that a majority of gunloons are racist. But let's assume that only 10% are--the fact that gunloons are willing to accept racists into their group and, indeed, often elevate them to positions of leadership in the NRA and other gunloon groups doesn't speak well of you.

    Look, Greggy, you can't march down the street with the KKK and proclaim you don't believe in all the racist stuff but enjoy wearing the hood.

    4. I'm always correct, it's a gift.

  3. 1. Show me. I didn't say that it's impossible that Butler is a member. I said that you presented no evidence. I could say that I have a unicorn in my back yard. Do you believe me?

    2. There's a potential that I'll be selected as the first human being to go to Mars. It's a slim chance, but it exists. But when you put "potential" in the title, you imply a high likelihood. You do know what an implication is, no?

    3. What evidence? There are 100,000,000 gun owners in this country. You're claiming that most of them are racists? But let's clear up one matter right now. I've never marched with the KKK, nor will I do so.

    4. You're special, all right, but you are confused as to which tail of the bell curve you are in.

  4. By the way, Jadegold, you may want to talk to Laci about the definition of libel. You repeatedly assert NRA membership for any number of criminals. Your obvious goal to is smear the NRA. Making claims that you know to be false could put you in danger of a civil suit.

  5. "I disagree; the evidence is pretty clear that a majority of democrats are racist. But let's assume that only 10% are--the fact that democrats are willing to accept racists into their group and, indeed, often elevate them to positions of leadership in the Senate and other democrat groups doesn't speak well of democrats"

    Fixed it for you...

    1. No, there is not clear evidence that a majority of democrats are racist.

      And no, they don't elevate them; for some reason you seem to be confusing the tea party with the democrats.

      Certainly if you look at groups like the black caucus, you will find a majority of them to be democrats, who do a very good job of working with other democrats.

      I think you need to fix a lot more, starting with your lack of fact and your failure at thinking.

  6. Greggy: WRT libel, the truth is an absolute defense. So, I'm unconcerned with your novel legal interpretations.

    1. Do your own research into Butler's affiliation with the NRA.

    2. Potential does not mean "high liklihood" --but it could.

    3. Not claiming most gunloons are racists, I'm am asserting that is indeed the case.

    4. Still correct. Gift, you know.

    BTW, have you seen the NRA's 'freedom in Peril' signed by Wayne lapierre and Chis Cox?

    1. Assertions do not equal truth. You have to have evidence.

  7. Turns out that Butler is a Democrat and a OWS supporter.

    Under the forum rules established by DogGone, that claim now stays until someone proves it is false.

    Thanks DogGone for giving us clear direction and establishing protocol.

  8. Greggy: Do you deny Larry Pratt is a racist? How about Ted Nugent? What about the departed Jeff Cooper?

    All of these folks are leaders in the gunloon fringe.

    That, m'boy, is evidence.

    1. I don't care. I'm not going to make an ad hominem fallacy by saying that the attitudes about race of three well-known individuals have anything to do with their arguments about gun rights and gun policy.

      Take this example: If Jeff Cooper went outside on a sunny day and called the sky blue, would you deny the truth of that statement because he happened to hold views on other subjects that you don't like?

      I don't require people to be ideologically pure on every subject before I'll listen to them on a particular subject of their expertise. When Cooper says that the .45 caliber 1911 is a good handgun for self-defense, I don't have to refer to his positions on race to evaluate that statement.

      In addition, my choice to own a firearm or to carry a firearm has nothing to do with race. You may not believe that statement, but that's another thing that I don't care about.

  9. Let's see, Greggy. You choose to align yourself with a group that has leaders and members who are racists. But you claim such views are irrelevant. You parrot their positions and support them blindly.

    Most rational people would choose not to align themselves with such folks even if they happen to agree with them on many other issues. You see, Greggy, racism isn't like picking a favorite color or not liking cauliflower or thinking the Red Sox are best team ever.

    1. Jadegold, you in your own way are as bad as any racist. You can't stand the idea of anyone being different from you. You can't conceive that someone else could reasonably reach a conclusion different from your own. You think that you've found the one true way, and just like the Inquisitors, you see anyone who disagrees as wicked or stupid.

      You also remind me of a bratty child who can't carry on an adult conversation. Look at the way you talk.

    2. "You think that you've found the one true way, and just like the Inquisitors, you see anyone who disagrees as wicked or stupid."

      Not to mention frequently referring to advocates of responsible gun laws like yourself as "gunloons".

    3. But Greg, it's not that you reach conclusions that are different, it is that you are so poorly equipped to engage in critical thinking, you don't simply reach DIFFERENT conclusions, you reach wrong ones.

      And you reach them in part through an absence of factual information.

      Ah, the inanity and insanity of the anonymi gun losers and loons. No one here refers to advocates of RESPONSIBLE gun laws as gun loons. That is a designation saved for the gun obsessed who advocate for too-lax gun laws.

    4. Jade - I haven't seen where the guy has an NRA bumper sticker on his truck OR where he is a member (past or present will qualify) of the NRA.

      He does fit the profile of old white flabby and crabby; and you are correct that the demographics and the policies of the NRA are arguably racist. Also that some of the board members, like law-breaker draft-dodger Nugent, are racists.

      If you have a link showing the bumper sticker, I would hope you would post it. There are also plenty of mug shots of Walton; not an attractive man, and I would venture he is neither intelligent nor educated from the way he talks and appears to think.

      Somewhat lost in the NRA discussion is that his victim is expected to make it, and so far is still alive apparently.

    5. He does fit the profile of old white flabby and crabby

      All of the above could safely be said about Jadegold as well. That's it, the burden of proof here has been met. Jadegold is a member of the NRA.

    6. Dog Gone, you ask for facts, and I give you facts. When we ask Jadegold to support his wild claims, he merely states that he's always right.

      For sake of clarity, why don't you give us a definition of what critical thinking means to you. To quote "Princess Bride," I do not think it means what you think it means.

  10. Dog Gone, here's a reminder:

    1. Violent crime rates have been falling in this country since the 90s.

    2. Since Florida became the first state in the modern shall-issue trend, states that issue carry licenses to good citizens and those citizens who get those licenses have been rising.

    3. There are some 100,000,000 gun owners in this country. We can argue the numbers some, but that's a middle of the road figure. Even if the lower number (80,000,000) is correct, we're still talking a large portion of the American population.

    4. The total number of guns in this country is at least 300,000,000. Again, the number is fuzzy, but that's a generally agreed upon estimate.

    5. Total gun injuries and deaths in this country per annum runs around 100,000. That number is less than one tenth of one percent of either of the previous two.

    6. Of the six to eight million carry license holders, fewer than a thousand have used their guns to commit crimes since 2007--that's the Violence Policy Center's number. Again, that means that much less than one percent of the total has done some bad thing with a gun.

    Those are all statements of fact. If you think that I'm in error, please show me evidence that contradicts what I just said. If you believe that I am missing some important fact, let's hear it.

    In addition to those facts, I use value judgements in my reasoning, since we're not talking about physics or molecular biology or the like here. To my way of thinking, we all have the right to make decisions about what we will own and how we will structure our lives. If I harm an innocent person, then I deserve to be punished. But until I do that, I'm a good citizen. Yes, people with severe mental illnesses are a special case, and if we could trust you, we could work together on how to deal with those cases. The general assumption, however, in a free society has to be that a person is good and worthy until proven otherwise.

    Given all of what I just said, I argue that it is the right of good citizens to own and carry firearms. I've shown you my facts and my reasoning. If you believe that I've made an error or used a fallacy, name it. Show me how I'm wrong.

    Otherwise, you may feel free to continue using your right of free expression to claim that I'm wrong, but equally, the readers here will be free not to agree with you.

    1. As expected, when Dog Gone is challenged on specific points, she has nothing to say.

  11. Am I to understand that Dog Gone will no longer be making snide remarks about my thinking? When offered the opportunity to respond in detail, she refuses. I do note in passing that it's much easier to make a general comment about something than to go through the specifics.